Episode 2: Getting It Done: How Focusing on Productivity is So Last Year
In this episode of the Full of Ourselves podcast, Heidi Hinda and Anna delve into the traditional definitions of productivity, the societal pressures surrounding it, and how these often masculine ideals can feel overwhelming. The conversation shifts towards the importance of process over mere productivity, emphasizing the need for personal rhythm, pleasure, and the significance of rest. They encourage listeners to find their own unique approach to productivity that aligns with their values and well-being, and discuss the importance of deadlines, the role of accountability, and the need to define what productivity means on a personal level. The conversation delves into the challenges of staying devoted to projects, the impact of external pressures, and the significance of creating conducive work environments. They also touch on the balance between productivity and enjoying life, emphasizing that true fulfillment comes from aligning actions with personal values and desires.
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Takeaways
Productivity often feels like a masculine concept.
The process of doing something can be more fulfilling than the end result.
Finding personal rhythm is crucial for productivity.
Rest is essential for true productivity and creativity.
Pleasure in tasks enhances motivation and productivity.
Considered consistency is more effective than rigid productivity standards.
Cycles and seasons affect our energy and productivity levels.
It's important to balance urgent tasks with those that are truly important.
Self-awareness is key to understanding how to be productive.
Creating a future me list can be more motivating than a to-do list. Devotion to projects can enhance productivity.
Accountability can help maintain focus on personal deadlines.
Understanding your own productivity style is crucial.
External pressures can distract from personal goals.
Creating a dedicated workspace can improve focus.
The Pomodoro technique can enhance productivity.
It's important to differentiate between being busy and being productive.
Self-knowledge is key to effective time management.
Balancing work with personal joy is essential.
Reflecting on the reasons behind productivity can lead to greater alignment with values.
Thank you for listening. We hope you have enjoyed it. If you have, please do like and subscribe on your favourite podcast platform. This really helps us get the word out. And do tell everyone you know!
Episode 3 of Season 2 will be released on Monday 24th February 2025.
TRANSCRIPT: S2. Ep2: Getting It Done: How Focusing on Productivity is So Last Year
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (00:02)
Welcome back to the Full of Ourselves podcast. And today we are going to talk about, this is a topic that is very relevant, we think, particularly at this time of the year. We've landed because we've got a new calendar and it's blank diary and we've done all our resolutions and all that stuff. And we're like, I'm a whole new person this year and off we go.
So I think today's topic is going to be something you need to hear. We needed to hear it and I think you need to as well. And this is the topic of productivity. The P word, productivity. I don't know, it gives me, I don't know about you Anna, already, even just saying that right now, I'm seeing like one of those, it's like a 70s movie or something, or advert, with people stood, you know, at those.
lines in a factory, placing things like robots in the same place over and over. It makes me think of one of those things, productivity. I don't know, it's got a bit of robot thing for me. And even though I like robots, that's, it's a funny word, isn't it? Productivity. So yeah, I think let's start by defining what is productivity? What does it mean? I think you found some interesting stuff about it, didn't you, if you wanna?
scare people to begin with, let's start there.
Anna Campbell (01:39)
Yeah, I think it's interesting. And this kind of came up because we were chatting earlier anyway, just generally. And it's nice to share a little bit of the backstory of how come this topic came to our lives and came into our mind. And the whole thing around productivity is about, for me, the things that come up are very, very masculine in some ways, I feel. And I think this is not to say that there really is anything gender about whether we get things done or we don't get things done.
but there's something very much about a way of being productive. Like we have to rinse every single possible thing we can get out of our minutes and our hours and our days. And we need to be completely scheduled and we need everything in and everything set. I just, the whole idea of it makes me feel, you can probably hear on my voice, I'm very tense. I feel very tense when I think about productivity.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (02:25)
You
What the...
no!
Anna Campbell (02:39)
because because I think this is why we wanted to talk about it because I think there's so much there's so much to talk about and I know there are loads I saw this quote actually somebody had shared stop reading productivities written by men and I was I was talking about how you know I'm writing my book now it's coming out this year whoo-hoo hooray you'll hear all about it on foop definitely definitely and I
particularly in writing for a particular personality type. So I think it can even go back further than that. It's not just about going on gender lines. It can also go on about like, sometimes we'll see advice around how can we be more productive? How can we do things in a better way? But it's not really for us. And it sounds really like good advice. sounds like it makes sense. And yet it just does not work for me. I'll talk about myself rather than.
say that for everyone, but I just, think there's certain things out there. There's tips, there's the whole time buckets thing, and there's the whole how you, you know, those people who've got like their Google calendar or whatever they use, and they've just got these colored coordinated things, and they just love that. And for me, it just makes me feel ill. It just does. What about you? What does it mean for you, productivity?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:39)
you
So if anyone's not clear, Anna is not a fan.
Anna Campbell (04:10)
If you
didn't, could you, if you could just read between the lines. Case I wasn't clear enough.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:14)
You need to put that on the t-shirt.
No one's coming to me as you see, as you see.
Actually, this is just a case of how to write it down, so don't forget it, with my menopause brain. For me, doesn't, nothing sticks to that. It doesn't have any particular, there's no purpose to productivity to get my juices going, quite honestly. The sake of doing things simply for productivity's sake is not a reason for me.
to do it. The reason for doing it is going to be the meaning behind the thing I want to do, what it gives me, how it makes me feel, what it's contributing, how it feels like it's expanding myself in service, what it's bringing about connection, how it's making me feel curious, how I'm growing as I learn this or challenging myself in ways or just inspired by. So all of those things to me are much more about why.
coming back to the why of something rather than the being of God would be productive. It doesn't have any connection. And actually, as I say all of that, the word that comes to me instead, and I don't know, this could be interesting for us to explore or, you know, any of you listening to this as well, we always, always invite your reflections, your questions, anything that comes up for you. So I'd really be interested because the word that comes up for me instead of productivity is process of.
Anna Campbell (05:20)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (05:43)
For me, that's more interesting, the process of creating my business, the process of designing a programme, the process of launching and promoting, the process of writing a story or a book. That's, for me, is where the aliveness is. Productivity, I think it's why it freaks you out and it makes me feel, you know, cold, I think, of robot product lines is it doesn't have any of that aliveness to it. It doesn't seem to have a soulfulness to it. Do you know what I mean?
It doesn't make sense to me as a word productivity. And it's very obviously, you know, we think about again, factory lines, that's the word I was looking for before, in a way, in a very cynical way, but it also is true, it's kind of what society does. You you go to school, you start on the baby product line, baby factory line. You know, you're taught how to sit it all day long for sometimes and you what to, what you need to know. You get prepared.
Anna Campbell (06:36)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (06:43)
to go out and get a skill that then you're gonna be earning money for so you can pay the taxes and contribute. The aquarium in me has the same reaction to that as the part of you that did to the word productivity. Because I'm like, fuck, we're just factory, we're factory produce, basically. And I don't know about you or any of you listening, but that ain't the shiz for me. I don't even know what that phrase means, but doesn't interest me.
in the flight.
Anna Campbell (07:19)
It's absolutely that and I think the thing is I want to get things done and I guess I guess it's probably the just the word productive That's just getting to me because I do what I you know do want to get things done and I do want to grow my business and so you know There are things that I want to do and I quite like that idea that you're talking about around process So it's much more about like how do I do this? But what I don't like I think for me the thing that I don't love is the very
And I know some people do love this. So if you do, I'd love you to just comment and just tell us, because, you know, Heidi and I in this way are very similar, I think. And so that's why we're talking about this, because I think there's an expectation that if we just could ring a little bit more out of our day, then that's what's most important. And I think for us, that's not what we feel as being important. But I think that's been...
that's been a kind of a message. Like these productivity books are all around. Well, if you could just get up at 5 a.m. and, you know, do your meditation and do all of these things before breakfast. And then you can do, you know, and they be very, very, very scheduled, very measured, very everything happens at a certain time. And for some people, that is exactly what they need. You know, that works for them and they find that really helpful. They find that structure really helpful.
but I find myself pulling against that structure.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:45)
Structure, yes.
It's really, that word's a bit loud. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (08:50)
And that, I think that's what it is for me. And
I like to, yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:54)
No, I just wanted to say that that's it, because I was thinking that word as you were speaking. It's the structure, isn't it? And structure is important. But I think that something about productivity is almost like just the structure as opposed to the flow and the magic that happens.
Anna Campbell (09:05)
Yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I don't wanna, like I like to do my meditation in the morning. I like to do some journaling and I have set times where it's nice if I can do it at that time but I'm not gonna berate myself if I don't have the energy in the mornings to get up and do that and I do it later on. You know, for me, I have certain things I like to do during my day but it doesn't necessarily have to be done at a certain time and I found that I tried to do that. I tried to be like, right, I'm gonna get up at eight.
and from eight until quarter past eight, I'm gonna do this and from quarter, and it, my body rebelled. Myself, my sense of self rebelled against that. And I think that, then I was like, well, do I have to kind of quit this altogether? But then I realised, well, actually what I need is, these are the things I want to do in my day. And now I need to find where it feels right for me to do those things in my day. It's not about,
If I don't have that done by 9 a.m., then my day is ruined. It's, let's give myself some grace. Let's give myself, we were talking a little bit more about this idea of more like cycles and seasons and how there will be certain times where we have that kind of productivity energy and sometimes where we don't and we just need to sit in a blanket.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (10:29)
Hmm.
Anna Campbell (10:41)
and just rest and that's both of them are fine. And scroll maybe like somebody today not naming any names.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (10:42)
Roll.
I love it. We had a coaching session this morning together and then a few hours and I had all this list of things to do to be productive about and I was just telling Anna before we started recording all I've done is well I've eaten some cheese on toast and I've scrawled a lot. That's it. I did some washing. I put some washing on so there you go. That's something but I don't give myself a hard I think I used to give myself a hard time about this.
Anna Campbell (11:09)
Nice.
Well, hello.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (11:16)
And I realize now that actually is another part of that. That certainly doesn't make me be more productive by, you know, whipping myself around around things. It's also I'm also thinking about because this is so much of how I work. It's how it's really important to me. And for me, there has to be pleasure.
in the getting things done. totally agree with you. The getting shit done is absolutely that 100 % and I like that rather than the productivity thing. But I want it to be pleasurable. I want to enjoy it.
while I'm getting things done. Otherwise, it's not gonna make me, it's not gonna inspire me to do so. You it's funny you were talking about this timing of like, up at this time and that, and for some people that works, and for some women that work. So I don't want, you know, those of you listening to, we're talking, this is a kind of men do this and women don't. Obviously, I've got loads of friends that are brilliant with that kind of.
Anna Campbell (12:05)
Yeah, absolutely.
Nope.
No, nope.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:13)
discipline,
structure of timing. But it just makes me think about, and I have a few books actually, and it's the thing I look at occasionally, of, I'm really fascinated by the routines of writers and artists. And there's something about, it's almost like that's what we're looking for, to find the ideal map of productivity that somebody else has mastered, and I'm just gonna see that and go, that's me. And.
Anna Campbell (12:27)
Yes.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:41)
You you read all of these and every single one is so different. Some of them are hilarious. Some of these that you read about with how people go about their plays or the things that they do to make themselves be productive. Like there's a writer who was writing, can't remember. I want to say it was Victor Hugo writing Les Miserables, but that could be completely wrong.
Anna Campbell (12:48)
Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (13:01)
some dude writing some great book anyway, we'll just go with that. But he actually ended up leaving his clothes in another room and locking himself in, something like he wouldn't allow to go out of his room until he'd done what he'd done, but he had to actually literally remove his clothes, so random, so that he wasn't able to go out. must have somebody looking after his clothes or something really strange, or somebody else who, and I don't recommend this for your productivity, who would take the most inordinate amount of drugs in order to be productive.
You know, people that get up at like three, four in the morning and be productive and then by 1pm they're done and whatever happens after that is nobody's business as they say or mistakes that they make or it's, there's no, there's no right way and I think like you say, especially this time of the year, there's so many ways, isn't there? There's so many things out there going, this is how to do it, this is how you're gonna nail your best year yet, this is blah, blah, blah, but these are the steps and keys.
And don't, you know, don't get us wrong, we've both got loads of things we can share and we do share. And that's part of us being coaches and being committed to our own work and our own businesses. But it's about finding what works for you. What will work for you, for you to get shit done? And no one else can tell you that. You have to figure that out yourself and make peace with. Like, I know for me, one more thing to say on this. Yeah, okay, I've scrolled before and blah, blah, blah, blah.
But I'm also very aware, and this might be an accountability thing, and I'll make it known, I'm gonna work into the evening. I like working into the evening sometimes. So I'll just work into the evening until like 9, 10 p.m. Fine. You know, I'll get stuff done today, and I'll get it done in that way. So I'm quite happy with that.
Anna Campbell (14:49)
Yeah, I think that's one of the key factors if we're gonna be trying to give kit tips.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:50)
What about you? What makes you predict everything?
Anna Campbell (14:58)
Yeah, I think that's what we're trying to give tips around this. I think it's around kind of knowing yourself and just being curious about yourself and how you best work and what time you best work. I mean, I know there's a whole thing about are you a lark or are you an owl? I think there is something to that kind of thing because they found this around our circadian rhythms and things like that. So I think there is something around that, although...
I quite like the, I'm a permanently exhausted pigeon as my one rather than a lark rather than a lark or an owl.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (15:29)
That's me! That's me! Do you know what I heard this morning as well?
I saw something this morning, was in my scrolling and it just made me laugh, know, because it was going on about how cruel morning people are. That they like judge you because you're not awake at like nine o'clock or something or other and as a melee night owl, though, I seem to be getting more of a lark, it just made me laugh. But then...
as night people think we're superior so you know it just works both ways really.
Anna Campbell (16:03)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. just, think knowing yourself and I think one of the main things around productivity actually is we can have a massive long to do list and everything feels important and has to be done now. And I think that's where we berate ourselves because even if you do get things ticked off your list, the list is always there.
And I don't like that. I'm not a big fan of the to-do list. So I like my future me list. I, for some reason, even though it's basically the same thing, my future me list feels better because it feels like it's no longer me from the past going, do this, do this, do this. It's kind of like, ha, future me could do these things. It feels a bit more expansive somehow. I'm not sure why, but it just works for me to have it as a future me list instead of a to-do list.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (16:38)
Ha
Tell me a bit more about that.
Anna Campbell (16:58)
Yeah, it works for me. But I think what we need to be
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (16:58)
How does that work then the future me list? What do you, how do you sample?
Anna Campbell (17:02)
is a bit more measured around like what can we get done and celebrate our achievements because otherwise we're just on the hamster wheel and just going round and round and round and round and we're not really getting the important things done. So I think being productive doesn't necessarily mean working 10 hours a day. It means getting the things done that are going to have an impact, even if that takes an hour.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (17:27)
There's a phrase that's in my mind right now and this is something that I'm been, I suppose, muscling more this year or I'm curious about and it's the phrase considered consistency. Considered consistency. I really like that one because for me there's a steadiness in that. And the consistency piece for me is a kinder way that makes more sense to get stuff done.
because consistency, there's always moving forwards. And it also then means that one day I might do very little, but I might do a little step of something. So there's still the consistency there. The next day it might be, you know, I have one those mud energy spurts and I'm working on something for hours and hours and I to make myself go to bed. But the consistency, keeping a momentum.
I think is more important for me is more important than this kind of almost the productivity doesn't have any nuance to it. It's a bit like the, you going back, you touched on cycles before, you know, if we bring this back to women in business, women, have cycles. And if you're a woman who is, who has periods, then
you're obviously going to notice the times in your cycle when you are more productive and got more energy for things and more social for networking and speaking up at meetings and you know in the kind of ovulation time of it or the summer time if you want to name it in that way. To the you know the week before you bleed when you hate everybody you can just get very emotional to maybe even the first well not even even the first few days of your bleeding when I know when I used to bleed for me nothing made logical sense.
you know I wasn't in a logic state of mind so we know about that as a bleeding woman but even after we've stopped bleeding I do think we still have there's something around that cycle that goes on but we live in a society that
Everything is the same out there 364 days a year and if they could get away with it all being the same on Christmas Day they bloody well would. We grew up at a time when we were younger. Sundays were nothing was open on a Sunday. Shops didn't stay open after 5pm. In the week there was none of this late night business. You know there was this kind of sense of pausing the rest. Let's touch upon that a little bit. What do you think about the importance?
Anna Campbell (19:47)
Yep.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:58)
of rest in productivity. I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are on that.
Anna Campbell (20:07)
Yeah, I definitely agree. Because when we think about productivity, it's kind of working all hours and then rest and eating is about fueling your body for the next round, isn't it? And I think what we know for ourselves is that we don't we don't want to live like that. You know, that's not how we I think anyone who's really kind of coming to this and hearing us is probably somebody who has their own business or is starting up their own business or whatever, because they want to have their own.
cycles. They want to create their own timetable. They want to do the things on their own terms. So my guess, if you're listening to this, is that that's where you're at and that's what you want to do. So I think a lot of times when people talking about sleep and getting enough sleep and we know how important that is, but again, it's about being productive again a little bit more than it is about ourselves and our health sometimes.
So it's, guess it's around about, it's around that balance, isn't it? Around how do we care for ourselves? How do we do the things that we would like to do? How do we do the things that we need to get done for our business and care for ourselves and make time for the things that we enjoy as well and our rest time and all of that stuff. It's,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (21:30)
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (21:34)
I think that's sometimes missing a little bit in some of the productivity languaging that I'm hearing, basically. Not on I know it's a gross generalization, but that's where I see it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (21:39)
Yeah.
I... yeah.
100 % agree and then the word that comes to me with that is guilt. I think it's such an innate thing because of how our society is and maybe the messages we got when we younger that to rest is lazy or to rest is like, yeah, it makes us feel guilty. And that's a big, big thing because we live in such a 24-7, the stimulation all of the time. It's also, I wonder how much of that guilt of rest is very...
Anna Campbell (22:04)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (22:18)
a female thing. You know, especially as the ones that we, the ones that give a lot, that we are always ones that taking care of, looking after the kids, kind of making sure, you know, dinner's on the table. I'm just thinking that these more traditional things that actually there is an element of sacrifice sometimes. Well, you know, being productive the whole time, we are sacrificing ourselves in a kind of broader scheme. So it's, think it's reclaiming rest.
that makes you more productive. I know for me, if I make sure I rest or I go for a walk or I do some meditation, even though I've got my, I love my to-do list, you know, my endless to-do list, I am, you know, surprise, surprise.
More productive, I've got a clearer mind, stuff comes to me that's more useful than if I don't ever take a rest. What are some of the things for you that help you be productive? If it's something, you know, that help you get shit done. Are there things that are, that you know work for you?
Anna Campbell (23:24)
Good question. was just about to ask the same question. So that's so awesome. I think for me, what I need to do is at the end of my work day, I tend to find when I just spend a few minutes just kind of clearing the desks a bit, clearing the decks and also thinking about and maybe even just writing down like what is the one thing I need to do tomorrow?
or what are the next couple, what are the next things I need to do? Because I think sometimes when I'm in that work mode and I'm like, right, okay, and I've got these things in my head, and then I kind of the next day I come and sit back down again at the desk and I'm like, what was it? What was it I was doing? I've heard that about a writer actually who said they never end at the end of a chapter, they always start the next chapter before they take a break because.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:10)
you
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (24:21)
They're in the modes then and they know what they wanted to have happen next. And even if it's just a few sentences, there's not almost like, there's not that full stop. It's kind of like, right, this is what I need to, this is what I'm not going to do next. And there's not this kind of working out and what am I meant to be doing? Because there can be lots of different priorities that we've got and things that we've got going on. And I find that quite a helpful, just a little, little tip from me that works really well.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:48)
No.
Anna Campbell (24:50)
What about you? What's anything that you could suggest?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:54)
I love that.
Yeah, I love that. I've just written that down actually, because I think that would be helpful for me considering I have a thousand and one tangents going off in many directions all the time. And yeah, it's true with the writing thing. What's helpful for me? I think what I've learnt and am still learning because of having so many things.
Anna Campbell (25:05)
That's me too. Me too. Yeah
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (25:17)
can mean for me that I get overwhelmed and then I do nothing, I'll just end up on the couch a little bit overwhelmed by and then like, well, we'll start again tomorrow. And so, and I haven't done this for a while actually, so this is a good reminder to come back to this, is that I will, at the beginning of the week, think about what I want to achieve this week. And I'll be.
make sure that there's not like a million things. It's not the whole to-do list. I go, okay, what are the most important things to do this week? And I'll probably start a new to-do list with those. I have to be honest, sometimes there's a lot of to-do lists being juggled. But then with that, I can at least go, okay. And then it might be at the end of that week, I haven't done all those things and they get moved on to the next, but then I'll ask the same question again the week after. Interestingly, in my...
Anna Campbell (25:59)
Yep, yeah, yep.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:10)
Creative Community Membership, the 8 % club, one of the things that is really lovely and I found really helpful because I do it with them is that at the beginning of every week we set our goals for the week. And sometimes they're very practical, I'm going to do this, I'm going to send that to that, I'm going to get that done, I'm going to start this. Sometimes the goals are I'm going to make sure I drink more water.
every day this week or you know like things that help the productivity and then at the end of the week at the end of that Friday evening everyone is invited to celebrate something from their week so there's this continuous cycle of like what is it I want to get done and then what am I celebrating that could be the thing I've done what I said I was going to do and really please myself or it could be like nothing to do with that
Because the other thing with this, I think is a good thing to touch upon is if the thing you're putting on your list that you're saying you need to get done is on the same list every single week and you're not touching it, that needs to be looked at. What's going on? Is it that there's a massive resistance there that needs to looked at? Is it you need to come to your coach with and go, need to explore this? Or is it that actually it's not actually important, but you think it is? So that's why you're not getting to it because...
It's a should. It's a should on your list. What about things like deadlines and things? How are you with those? Does that work for you?
Anna Campbell (27:42)
Yes, okay. Let me just, I want to just touch on something that you just said and then we'll let's get to deadlines. I remember I had one place I worked at in the early 2000s, long to a little while ago. And it was quite interesting and it's stayed with me. And I think it was the CEO or something who said, this year we're going to be doing the things that are important over the things that are urgent. And I think we need to think about urgent and important.
because a lot of times there are things that we are like, okay, I've got to do this today. I've got to meet this deadline. I've got to do this, I've got to this. But actually the things that maybe move the needle more and the things that actually make a difference perhaps aren't urgent. So they just keep dropping down the list, you know? But actually they're important and they're going to have an impact. And I think we need to do both. I'm not saying we don't do both, but I think sometimes we...
I think what I'm going to take from this conversation is to make sure that maybe each week I'm doing something that's on the important list, that's maybe not on the urgent list. There needs to be a bit of a balance between those things. I think that's quite a good thing.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:46)
Mmm.
you know.
What I love about that is I've been exploring the word devotion a lot over the last week or so. And it's something that came up in regards to the nervous system training that I've been doing. was something, yeah, I think I'd asked. Okay, so this is about the productivity and getting stuff done. Ask somebody, so that somebody is me, and maybe if you're out there and you resonate with this, please let me know that I'm not alone in this, who has all the million ideas and can start stuff and is excited.
Anna Campbell (29:06)
I love that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:28)
by the buzz of all of that. And I think this is what you're speaking to a little bit actually, what you've just said. But then when the buzz is gone, it's like the honeymoon part of an idea is gone. I contend to quickly, you know, the kind of be distracted by shiny new object idea. Now I'm going to do this now. So it always looks like.
and being productive. That's an interesting one, isn't it? Someone who looks like they're being productive, but actually, are they completing something? So I have fallen into this many times. So I was asking the teacher on the programme about, okay, I've got something that in your, what you just said just now, is important to me, okay? Because this connects to deadlines, which I want to hear what you have to say about that. So it's important. It doesn't have an urgent deadline. It's not urgent.
Anna Campbell (30:00)
Mm.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (30:17)
And I was asking her, okay, for various reasons, I know what I'm like with this, jumping on, how do I stay with this thing that I know is, I didn't use the word important, but is what I know I want to be tending to.
Anna Campbell (30:30)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (30:31)
when I know I have a tendency to kind of go off and how do I make myself stay? And this is where the word devotion, she offered that in. And then I've just been playing with that because you know I like to explore and stuff and it's been incredible. I'm going to write about it and yeah, it's alive in me at the moment. And there's something about that, maybe the things that are important are the things that feel that there's a part of us that we're more in devotion to that.
You know, maybe it's going to, like I know for me this project, so basically it's a book that I'm writing. It might even be by the time this episode's out that this has changed or I'm in, you know, whatever. But right now, it's important to me. And the reason I'm feeling the devotion to it because of, many different reasons. And it's like, can I give that the reason why I turn up and do the work with this?
rather than it be for maybe something that's more dramatic or something that's going to be wowed or you know something that's going to be out there that this is something quieter something more intimate something that's more for me right now does that make sense?
Anna Campbell (31:46)
Mmm, yeah, absolutely. How exciting.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (31:48)
Mm.
Yeah, the
devotion, it might be a nicer word than, you know, when we look at things of the, what to be productive. But certainly, I think that is one thing, you know, to watch out for. Are you being productive as in you're actually getting stuff done? Or are you looking like you're being productive, but you're just starting loads of stuff and not really actually completing the creative cycle on anything?
Anna Campbell (32:19)
Mm, yeah, I love that. That's a brilliant question. And I think to come back to that question you had around deadlines and the importance of deadlines, as we know, being the leader of the Good Girl Rebellion, one of the key factors around kind of identifying ourselves as the good girls is the and the rebels is that we will prioritise other people's deadlines and other people's.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:27)
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (32:45)
stuff before we do our own a lot of times and we find it easier to do that you know when when we're to do something we don't necessarily have so much resistance I think as we do to our own things because if we set our own deadline then maybe that could shift maybe you know maybe it doesn't have to be this day you know I've suddenly I've got to go and do this now okay well my deadline can move and I think that's one of those things that
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (33:04)
on.
Anna Campbell (33:14)
It's important to know and understand about yourself. And also I think sometimes because if it is your own personality, you don't necessarily realise that not everyone is similar in that way to you. Some people don't struggle with that and it's really those people are amazing. I love them, but also be envious of them because they don't really struggle with that, but I do. So.
finding ways to kind of honour yourself and your own deadlines and sometimes we need to find that external accountability like working with a coach or maybe with an accountability group or an accountability buddy. I heard this great one which I loved which was that these two people basically one of them had to write five listings on Etsy each week and the other one had to, can't remember what it was they had to do but they had to do a certain thing every single week.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (33:51)
Mm.
Anna Campbell (34:08)
And if they didn't, they had to pay each other like $10 or something. So if they didn't do it, they had to do that. And I've heard another one where you write a check to, and checks are pretty old, I don't even know if they exist anymore, but the idea was you write a check to an organization that you do not like. So like your opposite political party or something. You give it to the other person. And if you haven't done the thing,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (34:15)
how.
hello.
Anna Campbell (34:35)
that you were meant to do, then that person has to post the cheque to the court to pay them. And that's just like, it's just like, it's stupid little things, but sometimes that kind of thing is gonna be, no, I'm not paying any money to that. Do you what mean? It's like not doing that anymore. It's little fun ways of doing it, you know?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (34:50)
it's such the reverse psychology.
I love it. It's, know, how many times? I mean, have you done this as well? How many times I'm like, no, I'll go and like, I'll have that treat or go and have that cake or I'll go and read a chat to my book or something after I've sat down and done an hour's work or I'll go and like the self rewarding things.
Anna Campbell (35:00)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:18)
You know, which sometimes works for me and then sometimes the part of me that has no willpower or self-control just takes over and that doesn't work. So it really does depend. I love that.
Anna Campbell (35:20)
Yep, yep.
because just let's
just do that anyway. I know it's hilarious isn't it?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:29)
Yeah, but I think the accountability
thing with people, and again, this is why having a coach for me is really helpful, or having a group, or even doing it with a friend. I remember I was doing this with a friend. We did it for quite a while. We'd speak every other week. And there's something about when you tell somebody, this is what I'm gonna do, and it's out there and it's been heard. It does make you accountable. It's like you've put it out into the world.
And so, but then the opposite side of that is also the case where you can go, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do this and it never happens. I've also been guilty of that. So it's kind of a bit like how much do we protect the things that we're doing and how much do we actually share in order to be held accountable.
Anna Campbell (36:18)
I know, think there is something around the energy sometimes of shouting about something and then saying, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this. Where then it's like, well, I've said I'm doing it so I better go off and do it now. But also sometimes we need to keep something back and it's like our own little project and it's our own little thing so that we don't feel a pressure on it. I think both can be important. I think it's just knowing which for which thing.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (36:36)
Yeah.
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (36:48)
You know, I think I think that's important. I mean, I see people so much on Instagram kind of sharing their to do list and then ticking things up and I was like, I don't know if I'd want to do that. Maybe. It's not not me, maybe. Yeah, well, that's also true. That's also true.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (36:52)
Yeah.
Maybe they're not even true. Maybe they're lying. There's that thing isn't there, there's sometimes as
well. There's also going back to like, you know, it's kind of almost goes all the way back to the beginning. And it's something that I think is a constant inquiry of ourselves in honesty of like, you know, what is the meaning? You know, what's the fuel behind the...
getting this stuff done, you know, and, you know, I call the shadow, there's a shadow of productivity in that part of society, which I've named the three P's.
which are, are we doing it for people pleasing? They're all sort of, that's outside of us, put it that way, that's a very clear sign that we're not quite aligned. If why we're doing something and being productive is to do with outside of us, we need to just kind of like sit down with ourselves and go, hold on. So people pleasing, I'm doing this so that people will like me and this is the right thing to do, blah, blah, blah,
Perfectionism, same thing. Got to show up, I've got to be perfect. This has got to be exactly correct, otherwise I've not done it right, rather than it's just done. I've not done it the best. Fucking hell, how's that working out for you? And then the third P in this is procrastination. We just don't even get started. It's such a disease. There's such a fear around it. There's so many stories. We can't even get into that. It's like we're very productive at being procrastinator-y, put it that way.
rather than getting stuff done. So it is really looking at what is our reasons behind wanting to be productive and getting this done and are they aligned to me? Do they align up with my values? And coming all the way back, because we've not mentioned whatsoever in this episode, I'm aware of that, even though it's been bloody juicy conversation touching upon our business. Let's anchor this all the way back into being a woman in business and looking to the year ahead, because we're still at the beginning of this year, of, you know,
Anna Campbell (38:50)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (38:58)
being productive in your business in the year ahead, first of what does that mean to you? Is that making more money? Is it being more visible? Is it having more invitations? Is it getting more clients? Is it offering more things? Like having a sense of what does that mean? Or is it just you feeling more balanced in your business? Would that feel productive for you? It might not be one of those outside things, or you feel...
you're continuing to do the things in your business that give you joy, but doesn't necessarily bring all the other stuff in because that's important. Going back to the important question, thank you, because this is important. So I think this is a really good place to start of what would productivity for your business be like this year? What would you like it to feel like, look like? And then from there going, well, okay, then what kind of action steps?
do I need to put in place?
Anna Campbell (39:56)
Yep.
Yeah. I'm sorry I'm writing notes because I've got loads of thoughts.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (40:04)
I
want to really listen to this before we've even produced it. I think I need all of them. And then the other thing as well, sorry just to say, and I'd love to hear your thoughts on this, is around the fact we don't have to do everything ourselves as well, which is such a big thing for women, isn't it, women in business.
Anna Campbell (40:07)
Yeah.
I think that's a really key one. The idea that we don't have to do things ourselves, that we can delegate, that we... Well, I think there's something around what you've just said earlier around, there certain tasks that are on the to-do list where you look at them and you've just, you've got to get rid of them. They're not important. They're not going to really move anything forwards. They feel like you should do the shoulds. You always be careful and be mindful of a should, because should tends to be a kind of...
external factor and not really what you want to do. Are there things that you could just get rid of on the list? Actually, this is one that Martha Beck, who I did the Wayfinder life coaching course and I loved, she talks about bin it, barter it, better it. So can you bin it? Can you just get rid of it? Get rid of the task completely. You don't need to do it. It's not important. Let's get rid of it.
Can you barter it? Is there some way that you can get someone else to do it? Can you delegate it? Can you give it to someone else? If someone is better at that than you, could you do something for them? Is there a swap you could do? And then the last one is better at it. Is there a way you can make this experience of doing this thing better? Is there some way you can do it? So I know, for example, I know you do this and I was about to just talk a little bit about this.
is you quite like to go and work in coffee shops. You know, and go and work in somewhere lovely. Is there just a place that you can go that makes you feel more energized? Possibly that just means less distractions. Possibly it means that you don't have your family around going, where's this? Where's that? Like you've just, you've got some space on your own. You've got less, because another thing I wrote down was interruptions.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:49)
Mm.
I mean.
Anna Campbell (42:12)
and distractions and that can sometimes be a big issue when we're trying to get things done for ourselves. So, you know, is there a space, is there somewhere that you could go to work? Maybe it's a space you could create a little kind of cocoon in your house somewhere maybe, doesn't have to be a big space. Or is there a place that you can go? Now, when I first moved up to Edinburgh, I mean, this was all pre-pandemic and pre-everyone working from home.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (42:14)
you
Anna Campbell (42:38)
but I actually rented a desk space in a house full of artists. And I would go there and I actually used to leave my computer there so I couldn't work at home. I would actually just leave it locked, obviously locked up, but leave it in my desk, leave it there. And I would walk to work and I would walk home because I think sometimes the productivity stuff is about just knowing that your desk is in the living room or your desk is just in the next room.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:05)
Bye.
Anna Campbell (43:06)
well, why don't I
just go and do this, just go and do that. And we then don't have that separation from like life, like our enjoyment of life because it's there and it's kind of staring at you and you're like, but I should go and do these things. So I think finding those places that you like to work, it's not just about the times that work best for you, but it's also those spaces. Does that sound right to you, Heidi?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:10)
boy.
I love all of that. And you've actually just made me go now because it's not very nice out there in Manchester today. I can feel my tiredness, know, all this kind of procrastination is really...
The force is strong in this one at the moment, that's fine. But I'm like, okay, yeah, I'm gonna be in. But actually, you're now making me think I'll go across the road to the place that I like that I think you've seen photos of it. It's got the glass ceiling and it's got flowers hanging down and there's a kind of bar there. And they can have coffee or I might have half a beer or something as it gets a little bit later into the evening. But it's a nice space and I like people watching. So absolutely, it does make a difference because I'm there for that reason. It doesn't mean I won't get a,
Anna Campbell (44:03)
Yeah, yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:19)
distracted by some sight I go down or whatever, but less likely so at home. The other thing about this as well that you could do, those of you that do find actually just getting going and having that time, two other things. One is something called the Pomodoro effect that you might have already done. And again, it's a big thing with writers actually.
Anna Campbell (44:36)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:42)
or people coming together to co-work. So you can even just look that up, Pomodoro, it's quite popular now, there's even a site that tells you how to do it. But pretty much what it is is you set a timer for, it's either 20 minutes, 25 minutes, so you work, you're productive in that amount of time, then you have a break, maybe five, 10 minutes, and then you come back and do the same thing. So you might do that three or four times.
you know, and there's something about separating that. It's amazing how much work you can get done. And then...
either or and because what I'm thinking of now they do this as well there is actually I keep forgetting about it's on a Thursday afternoon some friends of mine set this thing up a while ago called space to create actually so shout out to Lex and Ali as I am as I speak about it and it's for anyone like you know someone was doing their taxes once on it whatever it just made them get down and do it so I think it's two till five in an afternoon you can join from anywhere in the world
You have a check-in, how you're doing, what you want to work on. Set that. And it's the same thing. I think there's three lots they do with the 20 minutes or four, and then a little check-in in that between time. And it's amazing how much people get done, whether it's I'm working on my book, or I'm doing the imagery for a workshop, or I'm doing my taxes today. It's something quite nice doing it with people. So you're not having a social chimpwag, but it's creating those spaces. Like you say, thank you for bringing that in.
I think that's really, but I think it's just being creative with it. Again, it's finding what works for you. Anna says maybe if it is just you've not got the ability to go anywhere or maybe it's simply you light a candle when you're about to do work. Or pull a tarot card. You do something like ritual-y, so you're like, I'm entering into the productive space. I'm entering get shit done space when I do this. This is my way in.
Anna Campbell (46:27)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (46:39)
And it also makes think of the Clarissa Pinkola Estes in the Women Who Run With The Wild, and she's talking about creativity per se, but sometimes you just have to growl and snarl and bare your teeth sometimes at people that want to come in and take that space away from you, which I think is another thing as women could learn a lot in doing that a little bit more. I'm just wondering if there's anything else that we...
Anna Campbell (46:55)
Mmm.
I just,
one thing we did talk about and I wanted to just bring in, we've mentioned it a little bit, but it was around the energy of the deadline because I think we were talking about this specifically and we have talked about deadlines, but deadlines can be really helpful. And I'm thinking, you know, end of January is the tax return deadline. I've got a book deadline coming up. And the thing for me, I always used to feel bad about it that I would leave things.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:13)
yeah
Anna Campbell (47:35)
not quite to the last minute because I'm not that bad, I was the person, like I guess at school were you the person who did your homework on a Sunday night or on the bus on the way to school or were you the person who was doing it at that last minute and are you still that person because there's something around that adrenaline actually and the energy.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:35)
I'm home.
Yeah, I was hoping.
Anna Campbell (47:55)
of getting something done at the last minute. It's there
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:55)
Yeah. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (47:58)
and that energy is there. But the thing is I used to feel bad about that. Like, I should, I should again, should get this done, should do this, should do that. But the fact of the matter is I now trust myself and I'm like, well, I'll get it done. I don't doubt that I will do it. So I no longer spend that energy berating myself for not doing it earlier. I've just like, well, that's what I'm doing. That's how I'm doing it.
it will be done. And that's that. And I think the issue can be sometimes when it's our own deadline, that we don't have that hard and fast firm rule that suddenly the deadline creeps or, well, I can't do it now. And it just, we don't have that energy around the deadline because it's our own. And I think that is a shame. And that's why sometimes having that accountability really helps. So I know we've talked a bit about that, but I just wanted to bring in that because I feel like that's
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (48:36)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (48:54)
It's a big thing for me anyway, that energy. So, don't bring that in in case it aligns with other people too.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (48:58)
Mm. Yeah.
Yeah, I'm the same, we know this because we've spoken about it. And I play with that sometimes of like, what if I started this, like not the day before the deadline when I've known about it for two months, what if I started? You know, and often it can be like, but there's also something for me around actually when I do sit with something.
you know, sooner than what I would normally do. Actually, yeah, once I get into it, if I'm interested, I'm in it. There's something for me about the unavoidable around the last minute thing. I'm like that. And I think it's just, I'm gonna really, you know, what I realise about myself and just gonna own it, I'm addicted to the adrenaline. It's a dopamine rush. I'm very dopaminergic, it's known as. And...
Knowing this makes a lot of sense in my life. I want that burst of stuff. It's kind of quite I've got quite an addictive personality for me It's quite all or nothing a lot of the times and but it I'm realizing now it's because of this dopamine fix desire So then it's about okay
Anna Campbell (50:11)
Mmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:11)
Is that serving me? Is that working? It will deplete things. So if it means the next day after deadline, and I've worked loads all day, I can rest and recharge and I can do that. Okay. Or is there another way, again, my teacher is saying this recently around, can you drip the dopamine in throughout the time rather than so it's more steadier rather than the big up and down things. And I haven't necessarily explored that too much yet, but I like that as a more of a sustainable way.
Anna Campbell (50:35)
Hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:41)
of working rather than maybe the dips though I do like that I get off I get off on that and I'm all into the kinky stuff around how we create and all of the ways that we behave around that so there's a part of me that obviously enjoys that to a point you know so yeah it's really interesting
Anna Campbell (51:00)
But I think it's
a, again, it's a back to that thing I was talking about around self-knowledge. Like when is the best time for you to work? Where is the best time for you to work? How is the best time to organise your work and the tasks that you need to do? How can you find those times and those spaces where you're not interrupted? I have no notifications on my phone at any time now. I don't have any children and I appreciate that those who have children.
need to know if the school is phoning them and that kind of thing. So I understand all of that. But for me, any kind of notification is just, it's too much and it's too distracting. If I wanna check my email or if I wanna check my WhatsApp, I check it when I am ready and when I'm ready to go in and look at that rather than forever being bombarded and it's...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (51:40)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (51:52)
amazing how many distractions, how many more distractions there are now. I mean, they've been talking about this for many decades, but it's even more, it's even more prevalent now. And it's, again, it's about how do you, like the Pomodoro technique does that, because it's like, here is the set amount of time, and this is what I'm working on for this amount of time. And that all of that is, it's all around just really being curious about yourself and what will work for you.
and trying different things if you're not sure, because maybe you don't know yet. If you've been so used to being corporate nine to five and your time isn't your own necessarily and you've just had to go with what other people do and you're now starting your own business, it's about just going in being curious, let's try this. Am I better in the mornings? I better in the afternoons? Could I go and work in a coffee shop or is it too much or is it, just...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (52:27)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (52:49)
Just have fun with it and do those things and see what works for you. And we'd love to hear what works for you. We'd love you to comment because it always gives us ideas. Even us chatting together, it gives us ideas like, I haven't tried that, let's do that. We would absolutely love to hear what productivity books do you like? What methods work really well for you? We absolutely would be fantastic to hear about.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (52:57)
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Yeah.
Yeah, completely. then just before I think we wrap up the session as well, I just want to like remind everybody of.
of that whole thing of the regrets of the dying, no one ever said, apparently, you know, with all these kind of stories you hear in interviews, no one's ever said, I wish I worked harder. You know, it's always about, I wish I spent more time with my family. I wish I'd noticed the flowers more, all the sunsets. I wish I'd gone for that dream and booked that holiday and joined that dance class or let my hair down more. And so it's just coming back to that reminder of like, you're living and creating a life and you're building your business as part of you.
that life and productivity and getting shit done, just being mindful that it doesn't become the be all and end all. It's part of that process, going right back to the beginning thing again and every other aspect of your life is part of the bigger process as well. So I think I just wanted to put that in as we end of this fabulous conversation.
Anna Campbell (54:21)
Yeah, I love that. That's
absolutely, absolutely. Now I think that's a really good, place to end on. So thank you so much for listening once again to this episode. If you know of anyone who would really benefit from hearing this, please do send the link to people, let them know. We've really appreciated that in season one, seeing people sharing what we're doing and the lovely reviews that we've had.
And so if we can have more of that and we can keep this conversation going as well, please do join us in this.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (54:58)
Thank you very much. And also, we're really opening up to asking you what would you like us to talk about for season three and beyond. Please let us know. Nothing is off the table. And we're really here to support you and have these great, gorgeous conversations as community of women doing kickass stuff in the world. We will see you on the next episode.
Anna Campbell (55:24)
Yes, bye!