Episode 3: don’t feed the trolls: how to handle criticism
In this episode of the Full of Ourselves podcast, hosts Heidi Hinda Chadwick and Anna Campbell delve into the topic of trolls and the impact of criticism on creators, particularly women. They discuss the nature of online negativity, the importance of not engaging with trolls, and how to transform criticism into creative responses. The conversation also touches on the historical context of women's voices and the concept of the 'witch wound,' exploring how past persecutions affect modern expressions of creativity and vulnerability. Finally, they differentiate between constructive feedback and mere criticism, emphasizing the importance of discerning the source of opinions. In this engaging conversation, Heidi Hinda Chadwick and Anna Campbell explore the profound themes of humour, empathy, and vulnerability as essential tools for navigating criticism and shame. They discuss the importance of humour in healing, the role of empathy in overcoming shame, and the necessity of embracing vulnerability to reclaim personal power. The conversation also delves into the dynamics of constructive feedback versus trolling, the significance of humility in personal growth, and the idea of viewing people as energy to better understand feedback. Ultimately, they encourage listeners to celebrate visibility and embrace criticism as a sign of progress.
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Takeaways
Trolls thrive on negativity and attention.
Criticism often highlights our own insecurities.
Creative responses can transform negative experiences.
Understanding the source of criticism can lessen its impact.
The witch wound affects women's ability to express themselves.
Feedback should come from those who have what we want.
Engaging with trolls only feeds their negativity.
Women have historically been punished for their voices.
It's important to discern between feedback and criticism.
Visibility in creativity is a courageous act. Humor is essential for healing and liberation.
Empathy is the antidote to shame.
Vulnerability allows us to reclaim our power.
We often fear being wrong, which holds us back.
Constructive feedback is different from trolling.
We can choose what feedback to accept.
Humility is crucial for growth in our craft.
Seeing people as energy helps in understanding criticism.
Embracing criticism can lead to greater visibility.
Celebrating our trolls can be a sign of success.
Thank you for listening. We hope you have enjoyed it. If you have, please do like and subscribe on your favourite podcast platform. This really helps us get the word out. And do tell everyone you know!
Episode 4 of Season 2 will be released on Monday 10th March 2025.
Transcript: Season 2, Episode 3. Don’t Feed the Trolls. How to Handle Criticism
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (00:01.564)
Hello lovely listeners and welcome back to this episode of the Full of Ourselves podcast and today we are going to be talking about trolls. Trolls, not those that live underneath the bridge though I did do. I think it was last summer. I had one of those days of...
I just had this idea to be silly. And so I grabbed my jacket and coat and a hairbrush, if I remember. And I went out to the local canal and I stood near a bridge and I did this kind of like reporting about the trolls that live under the bridge and don't feed the trolls, which is what this episode is, don't feed the trolls. And really using where I was that day and feeling kind of mischievous and using humour to take some of that edge off something which...
Anna Campbell (00:33.775)
I remember.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (00:55.502)
let's be honest if you are an entrepreneur, if you are creating something, you're offering your services, whatever they might be, you are going to be at the mercy of everybody out there who catches their eyes on what you're doing and as we all know everybody has an opinion, everybody has an opinion.
Anna Campbell (01:21.574)
But what's annoying about that is that they feel the need to tell us about it. I mean, I'm fine with people having an opinion. I don't mind people having an opinion and that's fine. If I'm not for someone, that's absolutely fine. Just scroll on by. You don't have to stop to tell me why I'm not for you. And I think the reason this first came about for us was like we put our first ever episode of Full of Ourselves out.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (01:48.7)
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (01:50.552)
And within 24 hours, we had a troll comment. And I was contacting you about it and kind of, you know, because this is the thing we know our brain has a negativity bias and those are the things that are going to catch us out. doesn't matter if we have 99 positive comments, that one negative is going to catch our eye and it's going to catch us out. And in some ways I was kind of like, wow, we're really powerful to call that in already.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (02:08.604)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (02:19.79)
Love it!
Anna Campbell (02:21.286)
You know, the fact that we've already kind of got someone who's just very annoyed about women wanting to talk about what they want to talk about. You know, clearly this was not for this person. But anyway, but what was really interesting is when I said it to you and I was like, this has happened. I've deleted the comment because this is, should make it because this is one of the things that a manager of mine said, which I always, always kind of kept.
kept up with and that is don't engage. Because this is what they're trying to feed off of that. I almost feel like they're like, I don't know if there's Harry Potter reference, but the Dementors, they're feeding off the negative vibes. They want the negativity. And so if we don't give it to them, then that's cut off. There's nothing there. And I'm not saying that if people have feedback, if people have things that they want to save to us.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (02:53.083)
Hmm. I don't-
Anna Campbell (03:18.554)
then that's completely welcomed. But this wasn't feedback. This was just personal criticism. And I'm not having that. I'm not holding that on my hour, my, but our space. And I was like, nope, this is going. But the thing that was interesting that you said that really took almost the sting out of it for me was you were like, it's probably just a bot.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:23.195)
No.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:27.546)
Yes. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (03:44.558)
And for some reason, there was something about that. the fact that I thought of it as a human person who had made the point of trying to rile me, because the comment was not about anything other than that. That was what it was. But then you said about bots. And what was so interesting is whether it was a real person or whether it's a bot or whatever it might be, is that when it felt like it wasn't...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (03:47.889)
Mm.
Anna Campbell (04:09.902)
a person when it was just a robot that was responding to like keywords or something. It just took that emotion away from it from me. And I think that was really interesting because then it made me think, well, actually, then why am I caring about this guy, this person who I don't know, who doesn't know me? And that really helps. So thank you for that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (04:29.243)
Yeah.
No, I've got so many things going in my brain right now about this. It's so funny. we're really excited about today's topic. as anytime we've ever had conversations, know, many, many conversations.
pre-beginning the Full of Ourselves podcast. It's so rich and it's so inspiring and it's so juicy and we both kind of really, we feed off each other in that way. So I've got a lot going on in my head right now around, we're kind of maybe skipping a little bit ahead, but hey ho, this is conversation, around how do we deal with that? Because for me, I kind of go into the ideal part of me, the balance, mature part of me, kind of likes to think I would just put a...
Anna Campbell (05:02.232)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (05:15.366)
thank you underneath everybody's, you know, not engaging in the game of, like you say, wanting to kind of feed into that energy. And, but I really like the idea of I just be like, thank you, thank you, whatever that is, kind of almost like stopping them or being a little bit like this isn't going anywhere. In reality, what happens often is I get really riled up.
I can feel the part of me that wants to come back with a smart-arse, sarcastic, clever response, just totally owning that one, and I have to stop myself from doing that. It is so strong, like literally pull myself away from that edge and just be with. Because often when I'm in that place, actually underneath that is a bit of an ouch, especially if it's something that we care about, you know? There's the ouch of disappointment, there's the ouch of hurt, the ouch of rejection, and...
Anna Campbell (05:59.044)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (06:06.652)
I know for me I'm learning more and more of how can I bear that ouch because obviously it's really important. But my first reaction is to go into my default defensive, clever, smart ass, let's hit you with my wit place and be cutting but with a smile on my face. I'm very good at that. I just have to own it. But what I've also noticed, thank you, and I'm kind of made this way and this is also just something that could be helpful.
Anna Campbell (06:29.114)
You are.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (06:36.59)
is if I let myself then just step back and be with whatever is present, I often find, and this is part of, mean, we've touched upon, have we touched upon human design? Maybe not necessarily so much, but part of, I'm a generator, if those of you that are into human design, and I know my big thing is responding, and I know Anna's often been there for me in a coaching capacity when I've had some of the experiences to remind me of this as well, is if I let myself just sit back, be with the energy of what's there.
Anna Campbell (06:49.282)
No, not so much.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (07:06.01)
not go into that direct reaction. Often what happens is that I get this creative response. So for instance, somebody, this was again either last year or the year before I think, and I'd posted something, it was something to do with women's bodies and orgasms I think I was writing about, and some guy had written underneath about, some comment about, isn't your vulnerable post or whatever, you're just trying to get, I think it something like you're just trying to get eyes on, know, okay, part of me.
course yes, I'm trying to get eyes on stuff, hello, we're putting ourselves out there and yes it was vulnerable post and it was very about women's experience, for you to come in. So I had all of my usual reaction, I went for lunch with a friend, it was all fire in there and then I was actually getting a train over to another city and I actually wrote a piece that I really love, a spoken word piece called Dear Man Without a Vagina which I then
Anna Campbell (07:40.486)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:02.168)
offered and spoke out and it felt like actually thank you I took that and I fertilized it and I used it in a creative way so that could be something you know if you're listening and going okay how there's so many different ways we can handle it you know when we get that and maybe for some of you maybe it does become a little bit of a of a seed or a little bit of something that that inspires a creative response.
outwards into the world so it's not kind of wasted.
Anna Campbell (08:33.56)
Yeah, I've always wondered about this. I love that firstly, and I love what you do, like your little troll under the bridge sketch and that, you know, that spoken word piece, you know, that is very you and it's about that responsiveness. And I think for you, the energy of that, I'm not saying we want to be criticised, don't go there everyone, but you know, when these things happen, that creative response is very interesting, but also very, very
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (08:53.649)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (09:02.662)
genuine, you know, from you. It's coming from, and I think that's why people connect with it so much because they're like, yes, okay, I can feel the real emotion that's coming from this. And that's that responsiveness and that generative stuff that you do so well. But I think what's interesting about, I'll just take that in a little bit. But I think that what's interesting about criticism is,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (09:04.102)
Yeah. Thank you.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (09:20.4)
Mm-hmm.
Anna Campbell (09:30.886)
And I wonder what you think about this and whether you'll agree, because I'm not sure if you will agree with this. But I think sometimes when someone criticizes us, the things that get to us the most are the things...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (09:35.622)
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (09:47.94)
I don't know, it's not quite, I'm just gonna say the word that it has like a kernel of truth or it has something about it that they're trying to just needle at. And so if somebody criticizes you and says, you've got purple skin and you're like, I haven't got purple skin. So you're not gonna get upset about that because like, you're just like wrong. It's those things that maybe we fear about ourselves deep down. do I have an example? Here we go.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (09:54.052)
No, no, no, no, no.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (10:11.868)
Give me an example. Do you have an example from anything? This feels really good and really, I'm really fascinated to hear this.
Anna Campbell (10:19.312)
Yeah. Well, I think maybe we'll go back to that example of that guy who's basically saying, on our first ever episode, and we were talking about why we created Full of Ourselves podcast and why we thought it was important to talk about it. And the guy basically was like, women talking, blah, blah, blah. Like, it's so boring. You have no relevance. And I guess there's a little bit of me that we were starting a podcast going.
Do I have something relevant to say? Will people be interested in what, will people listen? And there's a little bit of that, it's that ouch and that hurt, know, that thing inside that's kind of like, I'm putting this out there. It's that vulnerability, isn't it? It's kind of like, I'm putting this out there. This isn't for everybody. It's fine if it's not for you. It's absolutely fine. But this is for those people who we already know, because we're already getting the feedback from season one.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (11:00.453)
Yeah, yeah.
Anna Campbell (11:12.176)
who are absolutely loving these episodes, who are waiting for our conversations, who want them to drop more frequently, and know, yay, thank you for saying that, everybody. But I think in that moment, there was that little bit of that, gosh, is he right? And I knew really wasn't right, but there's all those, that fear and that vulnerability. And I think that's where that comes from.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (11:18.896)
Yeah.
Hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (11:33.596)
Yeah, do you know what it's making me think? It's almost like they're putting out those voices in our head, the ones that doubt, the ones that go, you're a fraud, what the hell are you doing? It's almost like they're putting that out there on paper, isn't it? And absolutely, of course, you if you're a troll, you're gonna go for the most damaging thing. You're gonna go for the most like bruisey spot, the most, like you say, the vulnerable part of it. I love that Brene Brown quote that she talks about with this, where she says, unless you've...
Anna Campbell (11:40.998)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:03.226)
Unless you're getting your ass kicked out in the ring, I'm not interested in hearing your opinion. And it's true. And this also makes me think about something I've learned about recently, which I'm actually just writing about currently, something called the avoidant artist. And no, this is something I learned in my nervous system training recently, and it's so relevant because it's been me. And maybe, you know, those of you that are listening, you might find there's something in this. And I think actually,
Anna Campbell (12:19.064)
Ooh, ooh, I've not heard about this. Tell, tell, tell.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (12:32.88)
you know, like Anna's work is with the good girls and I really resonate a lot with what she offers and I think this is something maybe a bit more, you know, touches upon that. So the avoidant artist is created when we were young and we were told we were too much, we shouldn't do that, we shouldn't be like that, you know, all of these places and without going into a bigger kind of more biological kind of level around this.
what happens in our nervous system because it always wants to keep us safe. That's its job the whole time. It basically decides it's not safe for us to be flamboyant, to be out there, to have that voice, to be mainly too much, I think is such a big one. And so we squish that down. We hide that. We turn the dial down. We just don't be that. And then we grow up into this, you know, into the people that we are.
But it creates this avoidant artist. And then what happens is, anytime anybody, and I've so experienced this for many years, anyone who is out there doing what actually secretly I want to be doing, or acting in maybe a full of themself way, which I wasn't able to access, or being what might be seen as too much, or saying these things, or how dare they, it would set off my own avoidant artist.
Anna Campbell (13:44.73)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (14:02.428)
like the alarm bells, you know, it's kind of touching that place in others. So when we recover or when we're taking the risk, which is what you're all doing, to actually go, no, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna put my ideas out there, I'm gonna give it a go, I'm gonna be vulnerable in believing in, I have something to say, offer, it looks like this and so on, is when we start to do that for ourselves more, that is basically where the trolls a lot of the time come in.
And I've been finding it really helpful to go, okay, it's pressing against their own avoidant artist there. And I use the word artist, but it could be the creator of what they wanna create. And I find that actually has been quite helpful to think of it that way, is going, okay, in a weird way, this is of service to you, troll, because if you're having such a reaction to this, you might need to look and go, well, what is it about that this person is doing or saying that you want to be doing or saying, but you've not allowed yourself to, or you've had to squish that part a long time ago?
Anna Campbell (14:38.042)
Yep. Yep. Yep.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (15:00.24)
that maybe it's time to own for yourself. And the same for us. You know, I still see that with people or people do stuff where I get that, my own judgment comes in a lot. And it's like, okay, can I catch that and go, okay, what is it about how this person's behaving or what they're doing that actually I would like to step into that as well. So, you know, it does work both ways.
Anna Campbell (15:22.97)
Yeah, that is so true. And then it means really that that person who is trolling and who is criticising, as you say, is doing it from almost the same places you're creating. Because that's what they're not doing. It's almost like they're kind of trying to give the reasons why they're not going out there and doing it. And their own self-criticism, I guess, they're just projecting that really.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (15:35.558)
Yes, yes.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (15:50.684)
And it's really harmful though, I remember years ago of, I mean it's harmful because let's face it, like you say, like we all know, none of us want to be criticised, none of us want to be rejected, none of us want to have that kind of, you know, it's not even feedback when it's like that, it's just noise, it's prodding, it's cruel actually a lot of the time. You know, I would much rather like if you don't agree, and I've had this with some articles that I've written, it's edgy.
Anna Campbell (16:09.401)
No, no, no, no.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (16:19.418)
I'd rather like, let's start a conversation. If you really don't agree with this, let's have an intelligent conversation. I would love that. You know, let's discuss this. We don't have to agree, but at put your points forward as to why you think I'm wrong. That's far more, we're gonna get far more out of that, both of the parties than that, than just some random ridiculous comment. But I've, you know, I always kind of think back to,
Amanda Palmer who I mentioned quite a lot because I really love her and years ago when she got rid of her record company because they wanted her to be in a way and visibility she didn't want to be and she did a Kickstarter campaign and at the time she raised the most amount of money on Kickstarter. It was all basically the people at Pledge were the same number of fans that originally bought her records so it was her fan base but she got so much.
trolling from record companies, people going you're taking away from other creatives, how dare you, who do you think you are? But particularly from, and we've spoken about this somewhere before because I vaguely remember, particularly from a really great newspaper in the UK called the Daily Mail, which you wouldn't even want to wrap your fish and chips in, let's just put it that way, another British, and a sighing heavily as I say that, it's not even a news paper.
It likes to rile things up in a very harmful way when people read that shit and believe it. Anyway, they wrote a very scathing article about her and she talked about it, she talked about it quite a lot, of how painful that was to the point of where she stopped creating for about six months. And she actually wondered whether she'd even be able to again. It hurt her so much. Like, hold on, there's a real person here that has feelings?
Anna Campbell (18:08.206)
Mm-hmm, yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (18:10.3)
And she did come out of that, but it took her a long time. And she came out of it in her creative response, actually, which is to create a song called Dear Daily Mail, which was very, very in your face, fuck you. And she performed it topless and, you know, real kind of, she was her basically. But we don't, you know, we're all kind of, we're all sensitive.
creatures and it's so brave. We're so brave putting ourselves out there. The act of visibility is such a risk. I'm still working with that. I think it's a constant thing.
Anna Campbell (18:41.088)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Anna Campbell (18:49.742)
I think it is, thank you for sharing that. I think that's so true and I think it is, it's around that vulnerability. And I think we were talking a little bit before we started around the witch wound as well, which, you know, we happened to be recording this on Friday the 13th, just so happens that we're recording it on that date, which has become a very supposedly unlucky day. But...
I understand, I don't know anything much about this, but I mean, I understand that this was actually quite an auspicious day for women and a kind of a goddess kind of day. I was just reading something about it just now. And as I say, I'm not, don't know much about it, but I always wonder when something is associated with women and then it's taken away. It's like, no, no, no, that's bad luck now. You're like, okay, that's strange. That's funny how that's happened. But yeah, could you just talk a little bit about what
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:38.264)
I can't have anything nice anyway.
Anna Campbell (19:46.022)
what does it mean about the witch wound? know, we're not particularly, I don't know, I believe in manifestation and things like that, but we're not particularly woo woo podcasts, but I think this is kind of interesting. This is kind of interesting. So let's bring this in.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (19:56.508)
I'll know.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (20:00.708)
Yeah, thank you. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was wonderful that you brought that in because it was so connected to what we're talking about, you know, it's like, whoa, God, this is such a big piece, especially because we're all about women in business. And absolutely neither of us are woo woo new agey, you know, we've both got feet on the ground. It's very real.
So the witch ruined essentially is a lot of way, a lot of people I've worked with over the years. And even last year when I invested in working with a business coach who's very on it with her business, this actually came up actually in the group. was all women at the time. She works with men as well, but it came up, but it was quite surprising when you're doing a business container for this to come in.
we can't get away from it, is that a long time ago, not even that long ago, and it's still bloody going on, let's be honest, as women, we were persecuted for having our voice, our voice being our power, our voice being our, all the time, what we're here to offer and be in service to, our visibility, our medicine, if you wanna look at it like that, our gifts that we're bringing. And...
because of voicing, you know, we can say voicing in a way of living, know, as maybe healers or kind of using plants or whatever it might be, manifestations even, all of this kind of thing, working with your menstrual blood, all of this stuff. What happened to us? You know, the worst things, we were punished and tortured and killed brutally, drowned and burned. So as women, we do carry, whether you're aware of it or not.
It's called, as Ana said, it's called the witch wound and it's basically a wounding at the throat where we, there's a fear, an inbuilt fear of voicing our truth, of having our voice, you know? So it makes it even more of a shout out of kudos to any of us that are traveling this path. I will never stop saying that for any of you listening that we get it. It is super courageous path to be walking the path of an entrepreneur.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (22:03.578)
And so it's still there, we're still working with this witch wound. So when somebody comes at us, and maybe particularly men, though I've had it with women as well, it can press against that without us realising it. This part of us, deep down, that goes, my god, am I gonna be killed now?
you know, expressing my opinion and that's not to be taken lightly. And just to go back to the Friday for the team thing, that's when women used to gather in together a lot and kind of do that kind of witchy stuff. yeah, of course it was taken away and made as something terribly bad because God forbid women should come together and create amazing things and you know, God shoulder at the thought.
Anna Campbell (22:25.616)
Mm-hmm.
Anna Campbell (22:37.094)
Uh-huh.
Anna Campbell (22:48.878)
Yeah, and I think whether you're like, dismissing that as you're listening, that's fine, that's up to you. But we've talked about before how the way that women now can even have a bank account on their own without having a man sign for it. This is something that's only happened since we've been born. All of this kind of stuff, it's all very new.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:07.504)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (23:15.306)
and just the way that schooling happened and all of the stuff that we've gone through. I think that if you are of a similar age to us, you'll know that things have changed and yet things are not changing fast enough. There's two of those things. We're also hearing about it in other countries where they're so frightened of women speaking or women being seen and women, they're creating laws about their bodies and their...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:31.504)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (23:44.482)
Yeah, I don't know. just see that. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (23:46.14)
Yeah, I mean look in the States, right? is Wade being like, know, upturned, like what the hell? What are we? How are we living?
Anna Campbell (23:54.436)
Yeah. Where are we living? But how frightened are people of women? I'm sorry, but if they've got no fear, then none of, you know, then this isn't going to happen. I just, they're so, they're so frightened. They're so frightened. And I think this is something around, I've saw this brilliant t-shirt, which I need to buy, which is like, go through life with the confidence of a mediocre white man. And I was like,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:00.177)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:04.38)
is so true. I'm writing that down. going to write that down.
Anna Campbell (24:22.982)
This is the thing that women are missing right now because we don't have that mad confidence. saw someone, again on Instagram, someone who'd been going to the gym and had lost quite a woman who'd been going to the gym, lost a lot of weight, doing lots of strength training. She'd been doing it for seven years. She was doing her workout. She was there. And a man came up to her and was like, do you think you should add cardio to your routine? And she's talking to him.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (24:24.892)
This is so funny.
Anna Campbell (24:50.554)
Finds out he's been going to the gym for two weeks.
Anna Campbell (24:57.158)
And he feels like he's got the right to say. I'm just like, but I think this is where women in some ways, we need to be able to kind of push forward from that place of vulnerability that we already have and realise that maybe we are a little bit further back because of the way we've been treated and brought up and all of these kinds of things. And I acknowledge that, but keep pushing forwards.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (25:00.092)
Thank
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (25:21.638)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (25:26.917)
I guess.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (25:28.028)
100 % and kind of taking that as a little bit of a basis, you know, and going back to kind of the, you know, people putting their opinions. I mean, we touched about this and I'd love to hear your thoughts around, because there's people's opinions and then there's things that actually might be helpful, like feedback or, you know, I'd love to kind of know your thoughts about how that.
Anna Campbell (25:46.234)
Yes.
Yeah, okay, so what is the difference between criticism and feedback? I think that's an interesting question to ask. And I love going back to Brene Brown's quote that you said, you know, if you're, if you've not been in the ring.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (25:54.776)
I'm in the room.
Anna Campbell (26:04.906)
If somebody is criticizing you, I think one of my first questions is, do they have what I want? Are they in a place where they have achieved what I want to achieve? Because if I'm getting criticism or feedback from somebody like that, I might take that on board and go, OK, maybe this person has something to teach me. Maybe this person has something I can learn from. But if they're just
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:16.742)
Rrrrr
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:22.502)
Hmm
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:29.788)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (26:31.558)
you know, if it's like in the theatre and they're just sitting in the stalls and they're just watching and they have no intention of doing something because they don't want to do it, they don't have the strength to do it, all they want to do is criticise, then I don't want to hear it. You don't have anything to say.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (26:48.796)
You know what's making me think of? It's making me think of Waldorf and Statler from Muppets. The two old mans in the thing. I mean, they're hidden there. Me and my sister used to call ourselves that because we were very much like that. So we have something to say. But that was funny because they were, yeah, they were, but actually it was done with a lot of humour and a lot of love, you know, and okay, the Muppets, but even though they were like that, they were there for every show of the Muppets. They were in for the whole thing, weren't they? They really secretly loved.
Anna Campbell (26:53.702)
Yes!
Anna Campbell (27:04.239)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (27:16.312)
Yeah, they love the show, come on. I quite like that though, because then if we think about those people who are criticising and we take them and make them like a muppet, they no longer have that power, do they? Because it's like, you're just a muppet, you're just moaning in the corner and what you say is just funny. You know, I like that idea.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (27:17.54)
It makes me think of them.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (27:30.428)
You
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (27:44.316)
You know, humour is really important, but not to bypass the ouch. That's really important to, it's really important to feel that because there'll be a lot of that and we have to be able to feel those, what we said, the ouch, the disappointments, the you know, all those things. It's really important for us to feel it. But then if we're able to hold that, feeling of it, to be able to go to humour. I mean, humour.
Anna Campbell (27:51.834)
No.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (28:09.602)
Humour saves, it literally saves people's lives. Think about the horrors that people have been through. And it's very magical tool, humour. And if we can get to that place of humour with these things, God, it's very liberating. Yeah, completely.
Anna Campbell (28:26.118)
I think that's true. And I think really, you know, as you're a writer, I'm not a writer specifically, but you're a writer. And I think, my brother-in-law actually is a comedy writer. I think what's interesting is being able to take something serious, which doesn't always have to be serious, but in this case, in terms of criticism, and kind of create something with that and make it funny. And it takes that sting away from it.
I heard there was a quote that's like humour is like a rubber sword. So it's got a point, but it's not going to damage someone kind of thing. Do you know what mean? I love that one as well. I don't know who said that. I'm sure we look it up, we can find it out. But I just, I think, I think that's interesting. I think, I think what happens if we come back to Brené Brown's work actually is that what can happen with criticism is that we can get stuck in shame.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:02.278)
Look.
Yep.
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:21.596)
Thank you for bringing that in.
Anna Campbell (29:21.85)
we can really get stuck in that place of shame and then we don't want to share. Cause when we feel shame, we don't want to talk about it. know, gosh, I feel so ashamed about this thing. I can't speak about it. And it just gets so stuck in ourselves internally. I think it can even make us ill when we get really caught up in that. And the only way out of that shame is empathy.
is sharing it, is talking to somebody who you feel confident talking about it with, who you know is going to hear what you've got to say and maybe will say, gosh, me too, or gosh, something similar to that has happened to me. And suddenly there's that balm of that, isn't there? Of like, I'm not alone.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (29:51.504)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (30:05.616)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (30:12.092)
The empathy. 100 % and it's interesting because often when I've been in, you know, maybe groups or retreats or working specifically with Shane and people are revealing, you know, myself included, things like literally making us quake, I've had the experience a few times where...
Each time something's revealed, exactly as you said, the feeling of empathy, you can feel it increasing in the room, till it gets to the point almost where you don't really remember the words that people shared. It's just you're left with this feeling of connection. I work more and more these days, I mean I always have anyway, I've always been interested in kind of shadow work and the kind of edges and things, but more and more these days I'm working with the modality of kink.
Which you know you might hear that and go it's sexual. It's talking about yes There's that element to it, but it's not all like with any of this stuff like the erotic that I work with a lot It's a the sexual parts tiny, so let's just put that down for now It's about these places that are not right. You know we're talking about wrongness before isn't it like yeah? The trolls make us feel that we're wrong the wrong is when we shame ourselves And then we cut off and shut down and make ourselves smaller and the impact that has like you said so correctly on every aspect of our health
So what I'm more interested these days, and it is very playful, is how do we unshame ourselves by using these places and just admitting them in a way where we take back our power. So maybe it is about actually, I don't know what I'm talking about really. And then rather than be like, well, okay, probably.
The truth of that is you do know, as you wouldn't be out there putting your stuff, but maybe there is a little bit of truth in that. So how about, rather than shaming ourselves, we really own going, just what, I have no idea what I'm talking about. I have no idea. I am completely winging this. I'm just getting out there. All this stuff's coming out my mouth. You're listening, lapping it up. I've got fucking clue where it's coming from. You'll go out to find out any moment.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (32:12.41)
And actually to really open yourself to feel, because suddenly, and I can feel it now, a lot of energy is there. We're not trying to hide it. If we're really honest, you know, we hear about this, people winging it all the time. We're just claiming that there's a part of it, it's not the whole part. There's a part that is winging it. And when we claim those places, not only do we unshame and free up all this energy, which I'm feeling, which is our power, our voice, it is amazing how much we, for a, feel liberated, we don't care anymore.
And B, how much we give permission for others to go, like you said, me too. And that is huge. That is huge. And we can do that with all of these parts of us, kink, I call it kinking our horrors or kinking our monsters and making them some sacred part of us that exists alongside the part that doesn't.
Anna Campbell (32:49.818)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (33:09.692)
Bye.
Anna Campbell (33:09.968)
Yes, I've always loved that when working with you, if I'm like, this has happened, this has happened, this has happened, and you'll be like, okay. And it's almost like I don't have to get rid of that part of me that's unsure, that feels like I'm winging it, that feels a bit worried about being visible. And you're like, okay, there's that part of you that's there, and you're gonna do it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (33:34.362)
Yeah, and exactly, so we spend far too much time trying to sort that bit out or work it out or heal it or fix it. And like you said, go back to the mediocre average white man. he ain't fucking doing that.
Anna Campbell (33:48.9)
Yeah, I was just thinking about that stat around how women won't apply for a job unless they basically can hit every single criteria, whereas a man will apply for that job, even if they've not got all of those things, if they've only got a couple of those things, because they're like, yeah, you know, I'm sure I could do it. And I'm not suggesting that the man couldn't do it. I'm just saying that maybe we also need to be in that kind of energy of like, well, that's my next.
step, yeah, okay, maybe I can't do all of those things right now. But I'm going to put my hat in the ring. And I think that's what we we, I think we've been taught not to do that in the past, not maybe on purpose, but it's just that's the those are the messages that we've had around around being quiet. I mean, I was talking talking to you at the beginning of this about the one of the worst things for the good girl, particularly, but the one of the worst things we can be is wrong.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (34:36.027)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (34:46.756)
of like let's not do anything, let's just stay quiet and let's stay stay in our corner and just not put ourselves forward because what if I'm wrong? What if this is the wrong thing? What if this is the wrong path? What if I'm doing it wrong? And that fear is holding us back but also like we might be wrong but let's just you know that might be the next step on the path anyway. I think we need to to take that
brave step sometimes and not wait. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:18.96)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:22.972)
I'm just going to close my door, Anna. My lodger's just come in. I wasn't expecting. So we're OK, aren't we? Because it's more weak. Yeah,
Anna Campbell (35:26.296)
Yeah sure. Yeah yeah. No worries. Yeah yeah we're all good. We're all good.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:35.228)
I'm just filming the podcast so I'm just closing the door.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:50.084)
Yeah, wrong.
Anna Campbell (35:50.512)
That's fine, we'll just cut that. we were just, where should we, let's start with something. it's okay. Just.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (35:54.3)
no, just the wrongness. The wrongness bit is... was just... Yeah, so, and also with, you know, and it might be out already... yes, it is, because it was in season one. So in... If you've not listened to our season one episode, first of why not? But secondly, there is an episode in season one which is all about getting things wrong, you know, making mistakes. So if you've not listened to that and this is something that you, you know, you know that you're challenged by, then do go...
do go ahead and find that episode, making mistakes and have a listen to that. But I want to go back to what you said, because I think I'm loving the tangents we're going off, the difference between the constructive feedback and kind of trolls as well. Like, how do we... Well, I love what you said, actually. I really want to come back to that piece of actually looking at who is saying that and if it's somebody we admire, we look up to or is in that field.
Anna Campbell (36:27.995)
Mm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (36:55.844)
What will we do then? So I'm curious. So someone said something, maybe it feels like a, you know, it's their opinion. Maybe it feels a bit trolley or it's feedback and it's from somebody that we actually would like that from. What do you suggest then? Is it engaging conversation? Is it taking that and sitting with it? Like what? I'd to know your thoughts.
Anna Campbell (37:12.962)
Yeah, I think there are a few things, because I think a lot of times feedback, it's motivated, but from them. If it's motivated because they want to help you and want you to be better, do better or something like that, I think there's an energy around that. And I also think that that person would likely say, I've got a few thoughts, would you be happy for me to share them? They just wouldn't go, bleh.
and just blurt it all out, do you know what mean? I think they might be more likely to do that. I think when we, I have a list of things we shouldn't take feedback about if you wanna hear about that. This came from, there's a great episode actually of Glenn and Doyle's podcast around this, which I'll probably link in the show notes, because it was really interesting. They were talking about,
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (37:41.828)
I'm Come on. Come on.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (37:53.894)
Brilliant! Yes!
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (38:05.244)
No.
Anna Campbell (38:08.644)
taking, I can't remember if we've talked about this before, so I feel like I have, but anyway, we'll repeat it if so, but taking feedback, it's like, they were giving the idea of the American mailbox, you know, the mailbox, you go to the end of the drive and you go and get the mail and you take it out. And they said, what you do is you look at that while you're outside. And if it's a junk mail, you just put it straight in the recycling and you decide what you take into the home.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (38:37.532)
How I love that.
Anna Campbell (38:37.83)
And think this is what she said. So I that was quite interesting way of putting it. It's like, look, what we need to try to do is to decide what is valuable for us to take on board and what we want to try and leave outside. And I think that's easier said than done sometimes, but I think this is the beginnings of doing that kind of thing. So one thing they talked about was anything that's about your appearance, we do not take that on board.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (38:53.818)
Mmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (39:00.828)
like that.
Anna Campbell (39:07.174)
Anything that's about relationship or I wouldn't want to be married to to her we do not want to take on board anything that's about personality of like they're a bit much or you know all of that kind of stuff again nothing and anything that's gendered anything that they wouldn't say about a man we don't take it's like yeah they whatever they might say about that so
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (39:25.038)
No.
Anna Campbell (39:32.952)
what we want, if there is something there that's valuable to take, then it's none of those things. It's about how, you know, maybe how we're doing something, how we're communicating, how we're, the message that we're sharing, you know, there may be a different way of doing something that perhaps they could suggest a better way. But all of that isn't feedback. And I quite like that. I'm kind of like, no.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (40:02.152)
I do as well but it's startling isn't it because so much is that when you're a woman and it's very personal like you can do that it's personal you know it's interesting a few weeks ago I really had to stop myself in there's a guy that I really like to follow on Instagram he's called I think he's called Jimmy on relationships he does his great little skits where he dresses up like a woman and there's him and they're just talking about different dating and things look out it's brilliant really really brilliant really helpful and quite funny at times
Anna Campbell (40:06.52)
Yeah. yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (40:32.134)
And he's hot. See, I'm saying on here. Now, there was a part of me that nearly went to kind of say, is great and you're, you know, some kind of version of you're hot. And I was like, whoa, girl, what are you doing? This is like the opposite of these kind of comments that someone, and I have had, you know, on my own stuff as well, that I'm just like, fuck off. What's this got to do with anything? And I had to catch myself going to do that. It was a bit like, whoa, there is something here that maybe.
Anna Campbell (40:56.998)
Mm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:02.064)
maybe we're not necessarily, this is going into a slightly different topic, of, maybe that's a bit in our shadow about letting ourselves kind of be lusty and a little bit like that over, you know, men. I know we're being very, very heteronormative in our conversation here and how we're about this and just really disowning that. But, you know, it's that part, it's like, I don't do that, I don't catcall, I don't go, you're good looking, aren't you, you're beautiful, or, yeah, it's interesting.
Anna Campbell (41:06.47)
Mmm.
Anna Campbell (41:18.405)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (41:31.516)
So there was that going on. But I think this is the other thing as well around feedback controlling. And I love that you brought those things in here. It's because it's very easy to take things personally. And I think we have to remember that we have a bigger, know, this is about our business. This is about our craft. This is about, you know, whatever our offering is, our service. It's not necessarily about us. We just happen to be that vehicle.
for this particular thing. And if we're gonna be too thin skinned about it all, we're probably not in the right, you know, we're not doing the right thing, because there has to be a little bit of a thick skin around it. But to remember this isn't personal is really important, I think, when we start to put ourselves out there in visibility. And like you said, I love that list. When the comments come about the trolling is personal, then to kind of just ignore it, or just go, thank you.
Anna Campbell (42:01.275)
Mm-hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (42:29.916)
And the other thing as well around feedback is, and this is something that I've only, I suppose, learned this over the last few years, is we can answer the kind of feedback we want. So if you put something out there, that's a way bringing your power back, put something out there, whatever it is, and then be very clear in going, I'd love your feedback around X, Y, and Z. You know, be very specific. And then you're inviting that, but you're inviting it in order, like you say, for it to be constructive, to be helpful, in order for this to grow, to...
to understand your audience more and so on. So that could be something you might want to play with that you haven't done before. Because it actually might also make you go, don't know what kind of feedback I want. That's actually really good. You know, because that can help you in the steering and the direction of where you want to go.
Anna Campbell (43:14.938)
Yes, I've heard this thing about like see this kind of criticism or feedback as free consulting. If you were to pay a consultant to come in and analyze and evaluate how you do your business or how you communicate or how you're visible and how these things come up, you would have to pay quite a lot for that. And they're just giving it out for free. And I feel in some ways that makes me feel better. It's like, okay, I'm gonna...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (43:22.489)
Nice.
Anna Campbell (43:40.686)
I'll take what's correct, what is actual feedback. The rest of it, I wanna just, you know, I wanna just try and discard. But if there's something there that's like, okay, that clearly wasn't clear enough, or this isn't getting to the right audience because this person is misunderstanding this or willfully misunderstanding it, you know, but like take it as free consultation. What can you do? How can you be clearer? How can...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:05.883)
Yes, sir.
Anna Campbell (44:08.518)
How can you use that? Because I think when it feels personal, and that's the problem with our businesses is that we can be wrapped up in our business because it does feel personal. This is our baby. It's our thing that we've created and we're putting it out into the world. And that can kind of come up for us. But I think if we can kind of take the sting of that personal out of it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:08.604)
Hmm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:15.664)
Bring out.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:21.051)
Yeah?
Anna Campbell (44:34.106)
then that can really be like, okay, what can I learn from this? Is there something I can take from this? Is there something I can improve from this? And then, I think then the actual action of doing something helps take away that sting of it.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:37.766)
Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (44:49.34)
100 % and you know what comes up for me and it's something I've been aware of for myself around all of this, it's still ongoing, is around humility. You know, like, I think that's a good thing to be humbled and it's a good thing to have occasional slap of like, whoa, you know, the humility is where we are actually, and I've been exploring this a bit recently, like we're in devotion to what we're doing, we're in a devotion to our business, we're in a devotion to our craft and our service and you know.
We don't have to get all godly around this, but there's something about having the energy of that means that we're constantly kind of almost bowing to it, going, what do you need? Not asking our business, what do you need next? You know, how are you doing? Like, what kind of action are you needing for me to take? Where do you need me to kind of step up more? Where do you want me to step back more? You know, because like you say, this thing that we're...
we've created has come through us. It is like our baby, we've birthed this. It literally probably has our blood, sweat and tears in it and hours of our life and the pain of it forming and all of this kind of stuff. So we can kind of treat what we're offering as something alive, know, and growing and evolving and we're in a relationship to, I think we forget this. So actually having the humility enough to go, okay.
this is also alive and breathing and let's see, you know, how I can, yeah, the word that comes to me is how do I bow to this as well and keep my feet on the ground and I think that's a way for us to grow more and to connect with others more as well.
Anna Campbell (46:24.902)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I heard this thing that made me, I was interested in how you think about this, but if we, this is about seeing people as energy, instead of seeing people as people, if we see what people are kind of putting out as energy, how does that change the way we take in these criticisms or this feedback or whatever?
And I think that one caused quite interesting to me because it did make me think, okay, what energy is this person putting out? Is it their own wounds that they're sharing here? You know, that you were just talking about earlier. I think that's often the case really. It's something they've been criticized for and so therefore they're kind of acting out with it. I thought that was interesting. What are your thoughts about the the energy of that?
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:03.164)
I'm not sure
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:14.3)
100%.
Yeah, I mean 100 % was it you that was telling me about the water? Like the kind of hearing that people are made up of 80 % water. I thought it was you okay so somebody said this recently.
Anna Campbell (47:27.35)
No. But that sounds, that sounds like me. Like I may well have done.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:32.732)
I wonder if it was you, I'm sure it was. Somebody said this to me last week around looking around at people or when you're engaging, when you're feeling a bit like, whoa, it's actually a member. no, it wasn't actually, no, it's another friend, another solo friend of mine actually, talking about this and she's doing a shout out to Ali G, not that Ali G, my friend Ali G, because she's doing...
Anna Campbell (47:44.504)
Okay, there we go.
Anna Campbell (47:54.322)
Hahaha!
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (47:55.13)
Getting up in front of a lot of very big investor people soon for business thing and she was talking about someone who said to her, if you look at people and go, you're made of about 80 % water, like I am, like the other person is, and to actually see people mainly as that, that we have this interconnectedness. And I really like that. And actually it feels exactly what you're saying about seeing people as this energy. I think it brings that sense of...
Well it's connection again, that we're not separate. You know? But I think also with retrolls though, think some people are just psychopaths. I'm just gonna say it, there are some luck cases out there, they've got nothing better to do than that it's not about them being avoidant artists or you know, kind of wounded or whatever, they're just arseholes that just wanna like, just be mean because they can be cowardly mean behind a keyboard. That's another thing to remember as well, it's incredibly cowardly.
Anna Campbell (48:28.804)
Hmm. I think it...
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (48:54.746)
to troll online, to put comments on things when you think about it.
Anna Campbell (48:59.556)
Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, one of the amazing things about the internet and the way the world has become so connected has been that we can be talking, you know, we've never actually met, we could be talking and we know each other very well. I would you as one of my closest friends and we can do that and we can connect with people and who are listening now all over the world. But those very few psychopaths in the world.
are also able to connect and go out and do these kinds of things that they wanna do in a way that they never would have been able to in the past. It's a vehicle. It's been a vehicle for connection, but it's also a vehicle for these people too. And what we wanna try and do is just kind of just not take that in because that's what they're trying to do. They want to stop us. They want to make us feel bad and ashamed and guilty and whatever it is.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (49:33.99)
Yeah. Yeah.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (49:44.784)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (49:54.394)
to hold us back and what we need to do. Our biggest weapon is to not listen.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:00.346)
I love this and this could be a good point to start to draw this to a close I think but something just occurred to me as well that I might play with this or do something with this. It's made me think about, wonder how it would be if we took off, okay so I'm just gonna say that I'm gonna play with taking on trolling myself to the nth degree almost like a stand up thing. Like if I say to myself every single thing that I troll could possibly wanna say about what I do, how I show up.
Anna Campbell (50:19.398)
Mmm!
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:27.676)
It feels quite exciting in a kind of very bizarre way of like, if I get their foot, you know what mean, if I'm owning it and have fun with her, it's taking away the possible, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna make little video, I think.
Anna Campbell (50:41.452)
I like that. That's interesting. And I think that kind of self-deprecating humour can come from that place, I think of it's like, me get the kicks in first almost. It's like, let me preempt you doing it. I'm gonna do it first. I've got that going on. And I think for me, a final thought is that around, I think what happens when we fear stepping out and being visible because we're worrying about criticism.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (50:50.916)
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (51:09.003)
is because we have this fear of being wrong. And I was looking at this thing about good judgment coming from experience, but experience often comes from bad judgment. And so sometimes we need to, we need to allow ourselves the grace to get things wrong. And maybe we're putting ourselves out there for criticism and we don't want to do that. And we let, pull back and we hide and we, you know, hide those places in ourselves. But actually what we need to do is just keep going.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (51:17.655)
wow!
Yeah.
Yeah.
Anna Campbell (51:38.318)
and keep putting ourselves out there and keep creating and keep responding and all of that.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (51:43.868)
And who is it that said... I want to say it was you but maybe it's not ages ago. Maybe it's somebody more famous than you. Something about... Have you ever heard of good girls making history or something? Or good girls changing the world? You know, if... And also it reminds me of Sex and the City when... Was it Smith? Samantha's?
Anna Campbell (51:52.752)
It's probably me. If it's so good, it must be me.
Anna Campbell (52:04.772)
Yeah, that does sound like me.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (52:13.082)
guy was doing his show and I think he was getting like criticism and then the gay, I think it was like Samantha that said first come the critics then the gays and then everybody else or something like that and I apologise you know I'm not being like you know funny with this I'm just thinking about from that show the 90s and Sex and City this thing about there is something about if you're getting criticised you're onto something.
Anna Campbell (52:37.444)
Yes. yes. Because otherwise you're basically invisible. You know, there's someone who's going to be, who's going to come out of the woodwork. I've seen this thing of like, if you get trolled, then congratulations because you've got visibility and people are getting annoyed with you. So that's great.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (52:55.248)
Maybe we should embrace, maybe actually what we're trying to say throughout the whole of this is embrace being trolled. Don't be afraid of it, celebrate it. You know, celebrate it, celebrate your first troll. On the hundredth. thank you everybody. This has been, what a great conversation. We'd love to know your thoughts, okay? What resonated, maybe what made you laugh, what made you go,
Anna Campbell (53:03.878)
Mm-mm.
Heidi Hinda Chadwick (53:24.644)
Anything we didn't cover around this that maybe you found helpful or you'd like to even share your experiences of how you've dealt with trolls because, know, we're all in this together and we'd love to hear from you. So that would be really, really appreciated. But thank you for your time and attention at this time.
Anna Campbell (53:46.63)
Thank you everyone. See you on a new episode very soon. Bye